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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to episode number 11 of the

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point of convergence podcast

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as always i'm your host exo academian

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dr john mack was a one of a kind

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individual

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whose pursuits and interests were as

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varied

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as the kinds of responses he garnered

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from various elements of both the public

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and institutional academia his day jobs

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included that of

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a psychiatrist a writer and a professor

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most famously mac was the head of the

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department of psychiatry at harvard

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as destiny would have it max stumbled

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across one of the greatest secrets

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of our time if not of the entire history

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of humanity

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namely the ufo phenomenon and

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specifically

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the apparent abduction of thousands if

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not millions

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of people across the world evidently

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by a clandestine alien intelligence

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mac never want to turn down the pursuit

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of an intriguing mystery

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soon began investigating this phenomenon

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first hand

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counseling clients who claim to have had

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these very experiences

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doing his very best to help them feel

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heard and understood

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in the process it was these endeavors

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chronicled in his 1994 book abduction

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human encounters with aliens that would

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eventually run him a foul

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of the overseers at harvard culminating

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in a near

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inquisition-style proceeding that sought

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to undermine his academic freedoms

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because he had dared to commit the

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heresy of questioning the dominant

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reductionistic paradigm of scientific

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materialism

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john mack's investigatory efforts into

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what he initially termed the abduction

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syndrome

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eventually branched out into what he

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came to see as undeniably related

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categories

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including life after death reincarnation

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soul identity

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and the very nature of ultimate reality

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this man's fascinating journey is

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chronicled in ralph blumenthal's

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compelling new biography titled

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the believer alien encounters hard

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those of us deeply invested in this

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topic owe a great debt of gratitude to

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the trailblazer that was john mack

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who at great risk to himself sought to

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bring the topic of ufology

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and specifically contact with non-human

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intelligence

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into the mainstream as a verifiably

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legitimate arena of study

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even as the academic establishment

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around him did its darndest to crucify

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him

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for the effort the life and legacy of dr

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john e mack chronicled in ralph

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blumenthal's excellent new biography

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is the topic of this the 11th episode of

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the point of convergence podcast

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now as we begin a quick note about the

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title for this week's episode

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an advocate for visitation for me this

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has a double meaning

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in one sense john mack championed the

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idea that this was an opportunity for us

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as a civilization to be transformed

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that this contact with non-human

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intelligence could be a way of moving us

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forward

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transforming us and resolving so many of

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our conflicts

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of course he was also an advocate for

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those who claimed they were being

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visited by these others

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he was a tireless advocate for these

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people

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lending a listening ear as they shared

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of course as a trained therapist a

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counselor

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john mack was in an ideal position to

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try and make sense of this phenomenon

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he always had a sense of whether people

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were telling the truth whether they were

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withholding information or if they were

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somehow distorting the information

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even perhaps if their subconscious was

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distorting the information in ways they

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didn't fully understand

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but as he listened to these people he

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noticed a shared storyline

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a common narrative and he identified

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this as the abduction syndrome

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and it had a common signature and of

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course we're very familiar with this

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signature

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here on this podcast and i want to quote

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from

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blumenthal's book here quote it usually

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began

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max said with the sighting of a craft

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that could be remembered as a helicopter

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van bus or other vehicle a bright light

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a humming or buzzing sound and the

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terrifying materialization of small

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humanoid figures

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sometimes also appearing as deer owls or

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other animals

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abductees might feel transported on a

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ramp or beam of light through closed

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doors and windows and onto a ship seeing

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their home recede below

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they said they felt paralyzed numb and

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powerless and intensely afraid

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witnesses on the other hand were

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commonly switched off

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unable to interfere and completely

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oblivious

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but sometimes relatives or friends were

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abducted together and recognized each

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other

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now to his credit despite being trained

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within mainstream

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psychology and academia john mack very

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much

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took sherlock holmes advice to heart in

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other words

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once you have eliminated all other

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possibilities whatever remains

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must be true and when he listened to

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these abductees these supposed abductees

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these people who claimed to have

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memories

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of having contact with non-human

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intelligence

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he sensed they were being truthful to

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the best of their ability

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but he did his homework he also looked

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into their backgrounds their medical

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backgrounds their

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families medical backgrounds and he

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found actually there was nothing

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abnormal or unusual about them other

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than that they shared these experiences

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and in that sense she came to the

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conclusion that these people were

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telling the truth to the best of their

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ability and that led him

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to the next step of his journey when the

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question became in what sense were these

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experiences

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real because of course people can be

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sincere

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they can be telling you the truth to the

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best of their ability

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and be delusional of course mac knew

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what this was like he experienced it

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quite often in his practice

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and yet when he looked into it when he

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studied these people

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really paid attention to the signs he

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didn't sense any of that

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there was no red flags telling him that

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and in that sense he concluded that this

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was not a psychological phenomenon alone

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and he also felt great sympathy and

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empathy for these experiencers

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because quoting from the book here again

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quote abductees suffered a fourfold

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trauma

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max said number one the experience

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itself

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number two the isolation of knowing no

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one believed them

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number three the shattered sense of

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reality and four

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the terror of knowing it could happen

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again any time

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abductees were powerless to protect even

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their children

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unquote of course when someone with the

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pedigree of dr

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john mack gets involved in this topic

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when the person who is the head of the

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department of psychiatry at harvard

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medical school

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says abductions are in some way real

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phenomenon not just in people's heads

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that's going to garner attention both

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amongst the public

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the mainstream media and to some degree

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academia

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and soon conferences were held and

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people wanted to know what the good

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doctor

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thought about this topic in what way was

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it real and how should it be studied

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questions arose around where and how to

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categorize this phenomenon

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people wondered if it should be treated

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as its own field of study

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or grouped within a larger frame of

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related experiences

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at one such conference questions arose

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and i quote from the book again here

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quote hands shot up for questions

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could the phenomenon be

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neurophysiological internal rather than

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external no max said any theory

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has to account for physical phenomena on

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the ground the cuts

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and that it happens to small children

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etc

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what about near-death experiences

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demonic possession or other spiritual

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phenomena

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that were also challenging the western

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paradigm

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we can only focus on this given limited

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time resources

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and energy max said but the western

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world view is under assault from many

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different directions

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this is one of the ones that is

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particularly challenging to the way we

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look at science

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and at reality unquote

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of course on this podcast we're very

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familiar with this

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challenge to the mainstream dominant

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paradigm of scientific materialism

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we're very aware how the phenomenon

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challenges

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those assumptions and that's true for

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all the contact modalities we've

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discussed actually

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i was particularly struck by what one

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experiencer said to john mack

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regarding how she viewed our everyday

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world when she came back from an

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abduction experience

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she wrote quote when they come it is

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like someone shines a bright light

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behind the movie screen and obliterates

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the scene

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what we perceive as the movie screen

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what we call reality

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they burn through proving it's only a

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construct

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a version of reality unquote

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that's a fascinating thought and of

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course when you pair this with the

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notion that we hear from a lot of

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experiencers

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not just those who had contact with

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non-human intelligence

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but also those who've had near-death

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experiences for instance or out-of-body

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experiences

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we hear that often they find that when

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they return to this world to our

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everyday waking world it actually feels

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less

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real than where they just were that's

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very interesting and it certainly

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lends credibility to this idea that even

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our everyday experience

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may actually be the construct

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and that in these extraordinary

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paranormal

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experiences that involve high

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strangeness people actually experience

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something that feels

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more real something that's closer to the

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actual base reality

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now when max sought the opinions of

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00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:32,000
other academians he was encouraged to

294
00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:34,320
maintain the null hypothesis for as long

295
00:10:37,430 --> 00:10:35,440
as possible

296
00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:37,440
in other words don't go in with

297
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:39,200
preconceptions about what's actually

298
00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:40,640
going on

299
00:10:44,069 --> 00:10:43,040
and to max credit he'd tried to do that

300
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,079
as long as he could

301
00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:46,560
he really tried to hold off from drawing

302
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:48,800
conclusions prematurely

303
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:50,880
even when this ran him into conflict

304
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:53,200
with other ufologists

305
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:56,079
when bud hopkins was reviewing material

306
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:56,399
that

307
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:58,959
mack had readied for publication he had

308
00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:00,079
some concerns

309
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:01,760
and quoting from the book again here

310
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:04,560
quote because he strongly subscribed to

311
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:06,720
the physical reality of abductions

312
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:09,200
hopkins didn't like it when mack wrote

313
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:09,760
ginny

314
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:11,600
who has been abducted many times

315
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:13,440
reported that she occasionally feels

316
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:15,760
that her body does not leave her room

317
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:18,079
but that she is mentally being projected

318
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:19,680
into the ship

319
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:21,680
contradicts earlier material re being

320
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:23,760
actually gone hopkins pencilled in the

321
00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:24,720
margin

322
00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:27,519
but he called terrific the lines were

323
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:29,360
children's narratives of abductions and

324
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:31,120
the graphic descriptions of adult

325
00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:32,880
abductee's terror

326
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,959
but he did not care for mac's suggestion

327
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,959
that abductees gave different accounts

328
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:38,640
of their experiences depending on

329
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,200
whether

330
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:41,519
the researcher slash therapist took a

331
00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:43,120
benign or sinister view of the

332
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,160
abductions

333
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:46,560
a far too subjective description of what

334
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:48,160
were to hopkins

335
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:51,120
fundamentally real events bad he

336
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:52,240
scrawled

337
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,720
hopkins suggested cutting the jacobs

338
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,480
quote we have been invaded

339
00:12:00,269 --> 00:11:58,720
and he didn't like max speculation that

340
00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:00,279
the phenomenon might not be

341
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:01,600
extraterrestrial

342
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:04,240
after all but rather interdimensional

343
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:09,350
now i'd like to add a note here while i

344
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:10,160
can understand

345
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:12,000
how someone like bud hopkins must have

346
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:14,399
felt after spending so much time

347
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,200
trying to get the mainstream media and

348
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:19,040
the mainstream scientific establishment

349
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:20,880
to take this topic seriously

350
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:22,480
well i can understand how that must have

351
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:24,079
felt when it was actually treated more

352
00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:25,839
like a running joke

353
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:28,240
i don't subscribe to this idea he had

354
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:29,440
here which is

355
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:32,880
skew the data in order to portray this

356
00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:33,920
in a certain way

357
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:35,440
i don't actually think that helps us in

358
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:37,279
the long run and it can actually lead us

359
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:38,000
down the wrong

360
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,920
avenues in trying to understand what's

361
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:41,440
really going on

362
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:44,240
we must try and hold the null hypothesis

363
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:45,680
and we must do our best

364
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:48,079
not to exclude data that doesn't fit

365
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:50,000
with our favored hypothesis

366
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,190
take for instance this experiencer ginny

367
00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:59,040
that was just discussed in the quote i

368
00:13:02,069 --> 00:12:59,760
read

369
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,079
when she talks about feeling like she is

370
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:04,320
sometimes mentally being projected onto

371
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:05,120
the ship

372
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:07,760
rather than having her actual body moved

373
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:08,240
now

374
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,160
some will look at that and say see

375
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,000
that's clearly evidence it's not

376
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:14,800
quote unquote really happening but

377
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:16,720
that's the wrong way to look at that

378
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,480
and when we think back to the data that

379
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,200
was delivered in the free study

380
00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:23,760
that was published in beyond ufos we

381
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:25,600
find this this experience is quite

382
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,399
common

383
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:28,399
people often experienced in fact they

384
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,320
experienced this more often than not it

385
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,240
was the majority of cases

386
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,079
that somehow their consciousness was

387
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:36,240
being moved and not their bodies

388
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:38,720
and again it's our fundamental flaw of

389
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:40,639
understanding reality understanding

390
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,680
consciousness

391
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,440
that makes us jump to these conclusions

392
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:45,519
where we think one event is real

393
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:53,030
again to max credit while he initially

394
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:54,560
bought into the idea that these were

395
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:55,440
negative events

396
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:57,760
negative experiences and that was

397
00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:59,360
certainly shared by people like bud

398
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:01,519
hopkins and certainly by david jacobs

399
00:14:05,829 --> 00:14:02,399
who

400
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:05,839
was associated with john mack earlier on

401
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:07,839
over time he developed a more nuanced

402
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,959
perspective

403
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:11,040
this was also helped by other people who

404
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,560
shared their own

405
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:14,560
work with experiencers and i want to

406
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:16,000
quote from the book again here

407
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,120
quote david a gottlieb a physician

408
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:21,440
psychotherapist in toronto who also

409
00:14:24,389 --> 00:14:22,800
worked with abductees

410
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,399
and had been publishing the monthly

411
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:26,639
bulletin of anomalous experience

412
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:29,360
likewise found flaws in the article

413
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,519
about one third of experiencers he said

414
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,839
did not undergo the classic encounter of

415
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:35,680
disturbing physical exams

416
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:38,000
genital exploitation and mysterious

417
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:38,959
pregnancies

418
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:41,519
the so-called core abduction experience

419
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,320
but rather

420
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:44,480
found their experiences positive and

421
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:45,760
transformative

422
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,360
unquote and of course when we think

423
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,120
about the free study which was the

424
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:53,279
largest study of its kind ever

425
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,560
to conduct a survey of experiencers

426
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:58,399
and their interpretations of their

427
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:00,560
experiences we actually find

428
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,959
this number of positive experiences is

429
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,160
even higher

430
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:06,160
and this is especially the case when

431
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:08,000
people have enough time and perspective

432
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:09,519
to look at the experience in a more

433
00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:11,040
holistic manner

434
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:12,880
again this is actually the majority of

435
00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:14,320
people according to the free

436
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:18,320
study data and this is definitely the

437
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:18,959
way that

438
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:21,360
max thinking went as well over time the

439
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:23,199
trajectory moved more towards this

440
00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:24,000
nuanced

441
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:26,560
and overall positive transformative

442
00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:32,949
but admittedly this topic of hypnotic

443
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:35,199
regression is a complex one

444
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,959
why do some people remember positive

445
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,720
experiences while others remember

446
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:40,399
negative ones

447
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:42,639
well dolores cannon who was someone who

448
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:44,880
conducted many hypnotic regressions of

449
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:45,600
clients

450
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:48,399
had an interesting take on this she said

451
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:48,880
that

452
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:51,199
the surface layers sometimes didn't get

453
00:15:55,509 --> 00:15:53,360
beyond the sheer ontological shock

454
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,519
the fight-or-flight response in other

455
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:57,360
words when you conduct a hypnotic

456
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:59,360
regression if you don't get far enough

457
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:01,920
down you're going to only uncover this

458
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,399
sheer ontological shock

459
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,079
but when deeper levels could be gotten

460
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:08,480
to she said the experience was cast in a

461
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,320
very different light

462
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:12,160
i find it interesting and again this

463
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,839
shows we need to continue to try and

464
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:15,199
gain more information

465
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:21,350
and of course beyond the challenge of

466
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,199
understanding our own subconscious

467
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:25,759
both as individuals and as a collective

468
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:27,920
the phenomenon itself is incredibly

469
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:28,959
complex

470
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:32,720
and defies our usual notions of reality

471
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:34,800
and dualistic notions don't do well at

472
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:35,839
all when it comes to

473
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:38,720
applying them to the phenomenon and this

474
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:39,279
is something

475
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:41,440
mac noted over time and yet he

476
00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:43,519
frequently ran into people especially in

477
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:45,839
academia who wanted to try and put it in

478
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:47,440
a straight jacket

479
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,320
and he wrote quote i object to the

480
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,720
either ornis of this he said

481
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:55,440
why couldn't aliens be real and not real

482
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:56,800
at the same time

483
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:59,920
inhabiting some liminal zone modern

484
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:02,240
physics was replete with contradictions

485
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:05,199
as in quantum superposition where chunks

486
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:06,480
of matter could occupy

487
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:08,959
two different places at the same time in

488
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:10,160
any case he said

489
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:12,640
the phenomenon could not be explained

490
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,000
psychiatrically

491
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:16,000
the people with whom i have been working

492
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:17,280
as far as i can tell

493
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:23,270
as a quick aside i'd like to point out

494
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,520
that in addition to doing a great job of

495
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:27,360
painting the life and legacy of john

496
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:29,360
mack in a compelling way

497
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,160
blumenthal's book also does a fantastic

498
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,919
job of touching on the highlights of

499
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,000
ufology events in our culture

500
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:38,799
over the last 100 years or so and in

501
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:40,480
that discussion comes the figure of

502
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:41,600
jacques valet

503
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,039
of course someone we've discussed

504
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,440
several times already on this podcast

505
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:47,039
and i want to quote from the book here

506
00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:48,880
regarding ballet quote

507
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,120
he liked to call himself the only expert

508
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:53,520
who didn't know what ufos were

509
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:55,520
too many others being all too certain

510
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:58,080
they were spacecraft from another planet

511
00:18:01,110 --> 00:18:00,320
valet acknowledged he was not easy to

512
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:01,120
categorize

513
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:03,760
as he himself summed it up one moment

514
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:06,320
you talk about ufos as if they were real

515
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,400
physical material objects in the next

516
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:10,480
sentence you talk about them as psychic

517
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:11,120
effects

518
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:13,200
producing paranormal phenomena in and

519
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:14,799
around witnesses

520
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,280
this was a fair criticism vale said i

521
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,600
can only answer that this ambiguity

522
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:22,480
is genuine and that it lies in the data

523
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:24,799
unquote

524
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:26,799
and of course we shouldn't be surprised

525
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:28,559
that we are frequently confounded when

526
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,440
we try and make

527
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:31,520
complete sense of the phenomenon when we

528
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:32,880
try and put it in a box

529
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:36,160
it refuses to be put there and as valet

530
00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:36,799
said

531
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:38,880
the way they manipulate space time tells

532
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:40,320
us we don't really understand

533
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:41,919
space time in other words we don't

534
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,919
really understand the nature the fabric

535
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:44,960
of reality

536
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:46,320
so how could we understand the

537
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,360
phenomenon likewise the abduction

538
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,280
syndrome or phenomenon whatever you want

539
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:53,440
to call it where sometimes people's

540
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:54,720
bodies seem to be moved

541
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,720
other times just their consciousness is

542
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:58,320
moved tells us we don't really

543
00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:58,880
understand

544
00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:01,600
consciousness either this is why this is

545
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:03,280
so difficult to understand

546
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,320
because we lack the requisite knowledge

547
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:08,480
but we should keep looking keep

548
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:09,440
investigating

549
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:11,360
because what is more fascinating than

550
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,760
this topic

551
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,520
and of course you can add to that

552
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:17,840
confusion the fact that the phenomenon

553
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:19,120
or the intelligence behind the

554
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:20,080
phenomenon

555
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:23,760
is often clandestine and mac noted this

556
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:24,000
as

557
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:28,640
want to quote from the book again here

558
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:31,919
quote she asked about proof the most

559
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,120
robust stuff are the cuts max said but

560
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:37,200
trying to rely on physical proof is a

561
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:38,640
dead end the plan

562
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:41,919
is subtle didn't that bother him no he

563
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,559
said

564
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,559
in fact you could say the phenomenon by

565
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,640
its very nature is trying to get us

566
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:48,640
off this pure reliance on physical

567
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,679
artifacts and

568
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,600
evidence for experiencing something as

569
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,240
true it's about that

570
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:56,320
when he first heard about the implants

571
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:57,840
he got very excited

572
00:20:01,270 --> 00:20:00,240
but the pathology test found no foreign

573
00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:01,280
substances

574
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:03,200
she could talk to dave prichard which

575
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:04,880
makes sense max said

576
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,880
if you have this technology that they

577
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:08,640
could do all these things to track

578
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:09,440
people

579
00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:11,120
there's no reason why they couldn't

580
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:13,120
accommodate with some subtle energy

581
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:13,679
thing

582
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:16,000
using tissues not that distinct from the

583
00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:18,840
body's tissues

584
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:20,720
unquote

585
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:23,039
now just like you and i john mack

586
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:24,000
clearly became

587
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:26,320
bitten by the phenomenon bug he

588
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:27,679
understood why this was such a

589
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,559
compelling topic of inquiry

590
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:32,799
at first he was perplexed by why a story

591
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,000
as important and

592
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:35,760
paradigm shattering as this one didn't

593
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,520
receive more attention

594
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,440
after all as i've said before it's not

595
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:41,280
only the most important and fascinating

596
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:43,120
topic of inquiry of our time

597
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,400
but of all time but over time mac began

598
00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:48,480
to see a conglomeration of forces

599
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:50,640
rising up to resist the effort of even

600
00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:52,559
letting these questions be asked

601
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,120
openly and honestly and i want to quote

602
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,200
from the book again here quote

603
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,360
why would it not capture anybody as the

604
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:01,440
most interesting story going on the

605
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,720
planet right now

606
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:05,039
he said the resistance came from the

607
00:21:08,710 --> 00:21:06,240
elite culture

608
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:08,720
the vast majority of the population the

609
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,400
grassroots had no problem

610
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:13,520
accepting ufos polls showed why did the

611
00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:14,080
elite

612
00:21:20,549 --> 00:21:17,840
resist so much vested interest said mack

613
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,559
huge investments in weapons mass culture

614
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:22,159
advertising and the scientific

615
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:23,280
establishment

616
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,360
universities would be jeopardized as

617
00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:27,520
trivial if extraterrestrial life

618
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:29,919
started showing up that changes the

619
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:30,960
research base

620
00:21:34,549 --> 00:21:33,360
it's very threatening i run into that a

621
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:34,559
lot at harvard

622
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:37,840
unquote and mac

623
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:39,840
went further in clarifying his

624
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:41,919
perspective quoting from the book again

625
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,080
quote i don't think we should abandon

626
00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:46,400
the scientific paradigm max said

627
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,080
he was only questioning whether the

628
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:50,480
subject object materialist duelist

629
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,280
structure

630
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,360
was the best way to understand matters

631
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:55,600
that didn't seem to fit the physical

632
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:58,159
four-dimensional newtonian einsteinian

633
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:59,120
universe

634
00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:01,120
he had invested hundreds and hundreds of

635
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:02,480
hours mack told her

636
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:05,120
before i finally said you know the truth

637
00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:06,480
is that i think there's some other

638
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:08,000
intelligence at work here

639
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:13,600
and i'm going to own that unquote

640
00:22:17,350 --> 00:22:16,159
now in his overall good-natured

641
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:17,360
well-meaningness

642
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,280
john mack may have been initially a

643
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:21,360
little naive about the intentions of

644
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,320
this hearing

645
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,880
but others recognized it was meant to

646
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,080
ultimately undermine

647
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:28,559
him and perhaps change his status at

648
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:31,679
harvard altogether perhaps get him fired

649
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:34,240
and people began to gather around him to

650
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:36,240
push back against the inquisition style

651
00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:39,360
hearing he was being subjected to

652
00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:40,960
i want to quote from the book again here

653
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,400
where someone said

654
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:44,240
the single most important potential

655
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:46,480
event in the history of the human family

656
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:48,960
in effectuating a transformation of the

657
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,039
consciousness of the human family

658
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:52,880
from the present state of our evolution

659
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,600
of consciousness to the next

660
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:57,919
he compared max revelations to those of

661
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:59,679
galileo and darwin

662
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:01,679
hailing his challenge of the entire

663
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,520
newtonian cartesian

664
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:06,000
scientific materialist paradigm upon

665
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:07,919
which your critic's very status and

666
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:08,799
stature

667
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:11,280
as professionals directly depends

668
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:12,240
moreover

669
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:14,159
mack was dashing headlong into the

670
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,000
spiritual world of reincarnation

671
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:18,240
and life after death not to mention

672
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:19,280
alien human

673
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:23,039
interbreeding unquote

674
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:25,840
now because mac now had a robust defense

675
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,840
and many people who came to his aid when

676
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:29,520
they recognized the kind of

677
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,280
inquisition style hearing he was being

678
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,760
subjected to it all came to naught he

679
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:36,159
basically was given a two-page warning

680
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,880
and that's about

681
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:39,600
it but even then he was warned about

682
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:41,120
what he did wrong

683
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:42,640
and i want to quote from the book again

684
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,320
here quote as

685
00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:47,039
mack walked out in a fog adelstein said

686
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:49,039
that he would not be in this situation

687
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,200
if instead of challenging accepted

688
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,640
concepts of reality

689
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:55,039
he had just said he had found a new

690
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:56,400
psychiatric syndrome

691
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:04,149
now while that advice slash warning may

692
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:05,440
very well have been true

693
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,640
that is the real politic of academia

694
00:24:11,909 --> 00:24:10,240
that's the way things roll in those

695
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:11,919
circles it of course

696
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,080
flies in the face of the spirit of

697
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:16,320
science and that's why it's completely

698
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,720
apt

699
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:19,440
that people compared max ordeal to that

700
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:22,960
of darwin and galileo

701
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:25,279
now as time went on mack began to

702
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:26,080
recognize

703
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:28,000
that the abduction phenomenon and the

704
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:29,360
ufo phenomenon

705
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:31,279
the contact with non-human intelligence

706
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,400
in general

707
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:34,799
was actually one spoke in a larger hub

708
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,200
to do with consciousness itself

709
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,440
and his latter years were taken up

710
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:41,760
largely in the study of the continuity

711
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:42,720
of consciousness

712
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:45,760
even life after death and interestingly

713
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:47,279
even when mack was killed

714
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:49,360
in a car accident when he was struck by

715
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:50,960
a car while crossing a road in

716
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:54,559
england afterwards a seance was arranged

717
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:57,360
and apparently mack reached out from the

718
00:25:00,789 --> 00:24:58,480
other side

719
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,799
and quoting from the book again here

720
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:02,880
quote two days after mack's death

721
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:05,360
keane said she arranged to seance with

722
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:07,760
danny's arrival she offered to cancel it

723
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,240
but danny said she should go ahead

724
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:12,960
john came through he described his death

725
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:14,400
keane litter reported

726
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:16,400
in answer to her question max said

727
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,679
according to keane

728
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:19,520
it was as if i was touched with a

729
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,520
feather i did not feel a thing

730
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:23,679
i was given a choice should i go or

731
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:24,799
should i stay

732
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:26,640
i looked down at my broken body and

733
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:29,120
decided to go and there was monty

734
00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:34,630
and i'd like to make a couple final

735
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,080
points number one

736
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:37,840
you should read this book it is

737
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,000
excellent while john mack

738
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:42,080
is a interesting figure that you'd want

739
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,840
to read about anywhere

740
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:45,760
this book does a particularly good job

741
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:48,080
of describing his life and legacy in a

742
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,960
compelling way

743
00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:50,640
it's a great read and i could hardly put

744
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:52,240
it down

745
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:55,520
lastly mack was a trailblazer he had to

746
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,159
go where his curiosity led him

747
00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:00,240
yet he was also humble enough to be

748
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:01,360
teachable

749
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:04,880
may that be true for all of us

750
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:07,279
and on that note we've come to the close

751
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:08,400
of another edition

752
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:10,880
of the point of convergence podcast

753
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:12,880
let's keep the conversation going

754
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,080
and growing but until next time from

755
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:17,840
deep within the blue ridge mountains of